McGuinness tells tribunal he was shocked to have 'tittle tattle' about McCabe confirmed by commissioner Callinan

By Gerard Cunningham

A Fianna Fail TD has revealed he was shocked to have "rumours" and "tittle tattle" about Garda whistleblower Sergeant Maurice McCabe confirmed by the then garda commissioner.

John McGuinness TD told the Charleton Tribunal that then Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan confirmed these rumours in a meeting in a hotel car park in January 2014.

The tribunal is looking at allegations that senior gardaí were smearing Sgt McCabe to politicians, journalists and others. The tribunal has heard previously that the DPP directed no prosecution after an historic allegation was made against Sgt McCabe in 2007, saying that the Garda investigation found no evidence that a crime had been committed.

Micheál P O'Higgins SC, on behalf of An Garda Síochána and Martin Callinan, spent the morning cross-examining the TD about what he was told at the meeting, which took place in the car park of the Bewley's hotel at Newlands Cross, Dublin, on 24 January 2014.

Mr McGuinness, a former chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, said Mr Callinan told him not to trust Sgt McCabe, and that McCabe was being investigated over child sex abuse allegations.

"I was deeply concerned over what was said to me by the commissioner. It put me in a position where I believed I could be completely wrong about this and about Maurice McCabe," Mr McGuinness said.

Mr McGuinness said he took what he was told in the car park meeting much more seriously than a comment made the day before after a meeting of the Oireachtas public accounts committee where Mr Callinan described Sgt McCabe as "a kiddie fiddler".

The TD said the then commissioner had made this earlier remark about the whistleblower after the PAC meeting.

"This was a meeting arranged by the commissioner. Things can be said in the heat of the moment. Here was a commissioner, making a decision away from that meeting, requesting a meeting with me. That is entirely different," Mr McGuinness said.

Mr McGuinness previously told the tribunal that there were rumours circulating in Leinster House about Sgt McCabe.

"What was new was that it was being suggested to me was that there was a file, a live file, and that was ongoing," Mr McGuinness said.

Mr McGuinness said the allegation that the abuse involved family members was also new information to him.

"It was no longer a rumour, it was not tittle tattle, it was something that was being presented as fact. That was quite different," Mr McGuinness said.

Mr McGuinness said that after the car park meeting he was in a "fearful" state.

"When he laid this information before me I was quite shocked and I wasn't in a position to take on the commissioner, as it were, by questioning his authority. He gave me that information as if he knew for a fact that that was the position. That's what caused me the worry and the fear," Mr McGuinness said.

In a statement to the Tribunal, former Commissioner Callinan agrees the meeting took place but says he only raised his concerns about data protection, and that it was John McGuinness who brought up Maurice McCabe’s motivation.

Mr McGuinness denied that he had given contradictory accounts of the car park meeting in media interviews afterwards. He said that he didn't recall speaking to Fianna Fáil leader Micheál Martin about the meeting until after he saw a statement which Mr Martin made to the tribunal.

Mr McGuinness said he approached Mr Martin "to thank him for his bravery in supporting Sgt Maurice McCabe" after he spoke about the whistleblower in the Dáil in February 2014. He added that at this time he also told him about the car park meeting with Mr Callinan.

Mr McGuinness said that he had spoken to Sgt McCabe about the allegations, and that the sergeant had assured him they were false.

"I find the whole thing absolutely disgusting that these rumours were circulating in Leinster House without any foundation whatsoever," Mr McGuinness said.

The Dail deputy said he believed that Sgt McCabe "was an honourable individual who was dealt with improperly by the State."

He said he "felt embarrassed and upset to have to ask Sgt McCabe about his family affairs."

Mr McGuinness said that he had told Richard Crowley in an interview on RTÉ's This Week programme that he had no detailed notes or a transcript of the car park meeting because he had only made "short snappy notes".

Mr McGuinness said the car park meeting was "trying to discredit Maurice McCabe", and he was " not going to allow myself to be used by Commissioner Callinan to spread the type of rumour and information that I was given”.

He said that it was "a break" that Leo Varadkar had called Sgt McCabe "distinguished not disgusting" after the whistleblower was criticised by the garda commissioner for giving penalty points files to the public accounts committee. Mr McGuinness revealed he did not think that Mr Varadkar had "stolen a march" when he said this.

Mr McGuinness said he was "deeply disturbed" after the car park meeting. "It took me that day and two days more running these matters through my head to decide that Maurice McCabe was an honourable man whose family had been devastated by the accusations made against him and deserved to be defended," he said.