Senior health official says Public Accounts Committee has 'a few loopers'

PAC vice chair Catherine Murphy TD: 'It is not acceptable that any Oireachtas committee would be treated like that.' Picture: Gareth Chaney/Collins

The head of the Department of Health’s finance unit described the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) as having “a few loopers” among its membership.

During a round-table preparatory session in the unit ahead of the department’s appearance before the committee last December, John O’Grady said, “Not for repeating, but there are a few loopers on the Public Accounts Committee, which makes it even more unpredictable”, according to a recording of the meeting obtained by the Irish Examiner.

Mr O’Grady, who routinely appears before Oireachtas committees as support staff for either his secretary general or the minister, added that “Robert is well able for them”, a reference to Robert Watt, the head of the department.

Unacceptable dynamic

PAC vice chair Catherine Murphy said Mr O’Grady’s comments revealed an unacceptable dynamic. 

"It is not acceptable that any Oireachtas committee would be treated like that," she said.

“It seems the executive value themselves more than they value the democratic side. 

There’s no doubt that there’s a poor attitude towards people being held to account — that is very evident

A spokesperson for the Department of Health said it was “aware of alleged recordings of internal meetings... being circulated”. 

The spokesperson added that the department “strongly believes that quoting the casual comments of individuals will only serve to limit constructive debate... across the civil service”, which is “damaging to the public interest”.

Substantive issues

The spokesperson did not address the substantive issues raised in the meeting.

They include discussion regarding what manner €205m in funding for the HSE for Covid testing and tracing could be approved before the end of the year to “avoid a scenario... whereby a deficit they have becomes a first charge in their accounts for next year”.

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Mr O’Grady states that there’s “an opportunity” to “give them some additional expenditure approval” without providing additional cash to “help them balance the books for 2021”.

Mr O'Grady notes that financial figures for November 2021 have not yet been received from the HSE, which he says is akin to getting “your homework in so late as you think the teacher won’t have time to look at it”

The meeting further heard the HSE had drawn down a figure from its pensions budget that was some 10% removed from the approved estimate and had declined to provide a reconciliation regarding the disparity.

HSE recruitment

Meanwhile, in terms of HSE recruitment for 2022, Mr O’Grady noted that the department needed “to walk a kind of delicate line” in terms of how it defines its expectations in that regard. He said there was an “inconsistency” between the fully funded level of 9,500 hires versus the 5,500 people which represent the HSE’s assessment of “what it can actually do in 2022”.

So we’re doing... doublethink here, in that we want them to recruit as many people as they can, but we know they won’t be able to spend all of the core funding

A HSE spokesperson said: The Department of Health is the past has addressed the publication of various alleged recordings of casual conversations between Department of Health officials and we have nothing to add."