Taoiseach protests ‘catchall trawl’ through finances

AT the start of his second day in the witness box, the Taoiseach expressed surprise at the extensive trawl of his financial affairs which arose from an order for discovery of documents by the tribunal.

Bertie Ahern: That is a catchall. It was everything from cradle to grave. I don’t known why I was in that category... It was a large trawl of everything and anything to do with Bertie Ahern. I don’t understand that. I don’t know what justifies that.

* Tribunal counsel Des O’Neill SC asked Mr Ahern about large cash transactions on which there was no information on the sources of the money.

BA: I cashed my salary cheques. I saved the money and between the time I was lord mayor in 1986 up until ‘93 when I started to open the bank accounts I saved over £50,000 but I put £50,000 in accounts. In my view that was a small amount of money for what I had saved. I’ve given details on that. Anyone doing an SSIA alone for the last five years on small money paying €253 would have saved half that amount. So I think for a person that held ministerial office, it wasn’t a lot. But I accept that the tribunal believes that it was.

* The Taoiseach was then asked about £50,000 which he had transferred to a bank account of his then partner, Celia Larkin in December 1994.

DON: It was lodged to her account for your benefit, isn’t that right? Do you have any trouble with that Mr Ahern?

BA: I just don’t understand the benefit. I transferred the money from two accounts. She wrote the documentation. It transferred over from accounts in my name to her name and subsequently I withdrew it.

Chairman, Judge Alan Mahon: But it remained your money.

BA: It was my money.

AM: Although it was now in Ms Larkin’s name. To that extent you were the beneficiary of the £50,000 even though it goes into her account.

BA: Well chairman, if I had, thankfully I didn’t, but if I had died in between whose money would it have been?

AM: Your executors would have been entitled to call upon it.

BA: I didn’t have any executors.

AM: When you died you would have.

BA: I am glad I didn’t. It would be complicated.

* The Taoiseach was next asked about the circumstances in which he received a large cash donation from wealthy businessmen at a function in Manchester in 1994.

DON: It was either May or September. Why, leaving football aside, what is it that causes you to fix it at that time. Was it after a football match?

BA: It was the evening before a football game. I have for 30 years attended Manchester United matches on a very regular basis. And the same people would attend with me most of the time and in any season at that time I probably would have done at least 10 or 15 matches.

DON: It was a Friday night and the meeting took place in a hotel, is that right?

BA: In a hotel. The Four Seasons — it was Tim Kilroe’s hotel.

DON: It was a dinner, is that right, a meal?

BA: It was a meal with a group, a hot group, all Irish people, most of them in Manchester for a considerable time, who I have met many times before and since. And it was a meal with an informal question and answer session,talking about the Irish economy, talking about the country. I would have attended an enormous amount of events in Manchester, officiallyand unofficially, over the years.

DON: In the course of the dinner or at its conclusion or at any time, did you see anybody gathering money together or making any collection that you could see?

BA: No.

DON: And at the conclusion of the meal did you leave that restaurant and go to another location?

BA: We went to the bar.

DON: What is your recollection when this presentation was made to you?

BA: I remember Tim Kilroe approached me with I think one or two others and said they appreciated me coming over. I had done questions and answers and talking to them, just general talk, and [he] said he wanted to make a contribution.

That night... I did talk quite a lot about the economy, what was going on, and all these people invested in Ireland. They have all an interest in Ireland. They are all successful businessmen who have employed a lot of people in Ireland and employed a lot of Irish people when they emigrated. So they are a considerably important group of people and I spent the time with them, through respect for that. And on other occasions they would have given me gifts. I think I said before they gave me books and glass and things like that. On that occasion, that’s why I remember it, it was the only time he gave me a financial contribution.

DON: And can you tell me what he said that indicated to you that you were receiving a financial contribution?

BA: He said they wanted to make a financial contribution. The only question I recall asking him, was it a political contribution as I would have to give [it] to the party. He said it was a personal contribution for me coming over. It was nothing to do with the party.

DON: Did he tell you how much it was?

BA: He didn’t.

DON: No. And in what form did he present it to you?

BA: He just gave me an envelope.

DON: Where did thisenvelope come from?

BA: I don’t know. I’m sure he’d it in his pocket.

DON: And from the nature and size of the envelope were you in a position to reach any conclusion as to what might be in it?

BA: No.

DON: Did you know if you were receiving a fiver or £10,000?

BA: No, I didn’t. I wish he had just given me a season ticket for Manchester United. It would have been more appreciated.

DON: And nobody alerted you in advance to the fact that there was going to be a whip around and you were going to be given money, isn’t that right?

BA: No. I mean I know it’s being portrayed outside of here, which is not relevant, Mr O’Neill. But the idea that somebody went around with a hat or a plate around the restaurant is just not what happened. These are serious people and they decided on that one occasion... on other occasions they had given me gifts but that’s what happened.

* Mr Ahern later remark- ed: Mr O’Neill if I had thought getting £8,000 plus or minus in Manchester in 1994/1995 season was to cause all the grief it caused me, I would have given it back to Mr Kilroe.

DON: I appreciate that.

BA: Or I would have brought it home and photographed every bit of it so I could have given you all the evidence.

* On another occasion Mr Ahern commented: It was 8,000. It was no big deal.

* After lunch, the tribunal questioned the Taoiseach about apparent inconsistencies in his versions of when he lodged £25,000 to his bank account which Mr Ahern claims included the money from Manchester.

DON: It would be most unusual if somebody had made a lodgment of £25,000, or thereabouts, in cash in a bank that they couldn’t recall the fact of having done so. Wouldn’t you agree with me on that?

BA: No I wouldn’t agree. I would remember that I would lodge money at different times but I wouldn’t remember the precise issue whether I went in and lodged a sum of money like that. I wouldn’t recall that.

DON: But in your lifetime, Mr Ahern, how many times have you made a lodgment in cash of £25,000 in a bank or withdrawn it? Can it be more than a handful?

BA: Only a handful. You know, it wasn’t some huge day of my life that I was walking in and I was going to remember for ever more.