Are you going already Penney?
To play over 100 times for Canterbury, in the amateur era, was quite an achievement. How close were you to becoming an All Black?
“I had a trial. They had world-class loose forwards back when I was playing, the likes of Buck Shelford and Zinzan Brooke, at No 8. Michael Jones, Mike Brewer, Alan Whetton and Andy Earl were on the flanks, a pretty difficult group to break into. I played 90% of my rugby at No 8.
“I had a wonderful career and played eleven international teams for Canterbury, on their tours. We would often get their test team on the Saturday, before the New Zealand match, so you would get the opportunity to play against their best players. I played against Ireland in 1992, the British and Irish Lions in 1993, South Africa, Scotland, Fiji, France.
“Becoming an All Black would have been special, but there are a lot of good players that don’t make it. There is a lot of talent down there. Back then, there was little or no rotation, so there was a standard group picked and only two or three positions would change during that time. I played a lot of sevens rugby and really enjoyed that.”
Summarise your coaching philosophy.
“My whole philosophy is about finding space and taking space. Sometimes, you have to be brutal with it, and sometimes the space is around the corner and you have got to be able to use that. It’s about identifying opportunities and taking them.”
Your perception of northern hemisphere rugby before you arrived?
“Your perceptions are created by what you see and who you talk to. I played up here in France, in 1984/85, and in Italy in 1994, so I had an understanding of just how physical the game is. There are some big beasts rolling around the park and some big scrummaging. I had come across a lot of northern hemisphere coaches, who had come down to New Zealand to have a look on professional-development opportunities, and I had been up to Northampton and Leicester Tigers in the mid-1990s, on a PD trip, myself.
“The image in my mind was a degree of conservatism around the game. It was about not losing, rather than trying to win. That’s a broad, sweeping statement, as there are teams up here that do play to win, but because of the pressures and expectation, that’s created a degree of ‘let’s play not to lose’. When you coach like that and your environment’s surrounded with that atmosphere, it rubs off on the players and that becomes very inhibiting.
“Talking to people, they said that the forwards didn’t have skill-sets, and the backs weren’t as skilful as the ones at home. I think the main differences, in terms of that, are the philosophies around coaches not allowing players to express themselves.”
Is that because of that fear of losing?
“To me, that’s probably one of the biggest differences, but it’s also tied into the Polynesian flavour that we have in New Zealand. It’s creeping into English and Welsh rugby now, and its creeping into France big time. The Polynesians have uniqueness. Their physical talent, their speed, their power, their dexterity with the ball. New Zealand’s been blessed, throughout the years, with being able to call on those talented individuals and, no matter what structure you use in a rugby framework, all the players are pretty equal talent-wise and its pretty hard to penetrate defences nowadays, since the league defence guys came into the game. Everyone has a very structured system and its relatively rigid and it’s hard to penetrate, unless you do certain things and one of those things is what I’m alluding to down in the southern hemisphere, where that individual flair allows penetration to occur through individual talent being able to bust the line. There’s been a bit of talk around the way Munster have played, since my arrival, and trying to get the players to express themselves more and attack space when it’s available. That hasn’t sat well with some people, but I think it’s been an unqualified success.”
Munster struggled, at times badly, to play the type of game you were looking to develop, but you stuck with it.
“Ultimately, I’ve got to believe in the people I’m putting on the field. I’ve got to trust them, show faith in them, and believe that they are able to grow and develop. If I wavered at any point, there would be no pushing forward. We would be going back to a much more rigid structure and a more narrow type of game. So, I could see, when I first arrived, that there were skill aspects that needed a lot of work and the four coaches put in a lot of time and effort into upskilling the lads. Every week, we could see glimmers of change and development occurring, but it didn’t always manifest itself in games. We got caught badly a couple of times, last season, particularly against Cardiff and Scarlets at Musgrave, when we had the winning of the game in the first 15 minutes, but didn’t capitalise on those opportunities and had some defensive slip-ups.”
You have been described as “the most positive man you’ll ever come across”. Where does that positivity come from?
“It’s me. It’s who I am. I don’t know where I got it from. I suppose, when you’re going through your formative years, certain people influence you and my wife’s mum and dad are very positive people and they were highly influential. Over the last ten years, there has been a lot of information around suicide and why that occurs and the fundamental issues with that. Going through an education system and reflecting on that, where young men were secondary to females academically, in terms of the way that things were taught; knowing, and being part of, a peer group, having chats about things and the stresses and strains that young men go through. When I first made the Canterbury team, in 1985, it was survive or die, basically. Crazy. There were people in there that were tough men and, as a young 20-year-old, I said to myself ‘this was no way to get the best out of young players’. Some of the players never went back, never wanted to play in that environment again. There were semblances of physical abuse at times, some guys getting picked on and beaten, because you had to prove you were up to it. If you couldn’t stand up to the lads, you got ridiculed and spat out.
“So, somewhere inside me, I said ‘this isn’t the way forward’ and when I became more established in Canterbury and had some semblance of influence, I tried to make it a very positive influence. I look back with a lot of pleasure at people like Mehrts (former New Zealand out-half, Andrew Mehrtens). When he came, he was just a young kid. He has often said in public forums how he felt it was unbelievable how I embraced him as a young kid, that he didn’t have to prove a point, and he was able to grow and develop as a 20-year-old. There was no expectation of him having to prove himself. His father came to me to express the same point. He would have been a very good rugby player himself, and having come through the older generation he was fearful of his young son going in there.
“It was all about being able to drink or being able to stand up to whoever threatened you. It wasn’t conducive to the development of young men. So it was partly that influence. Other people have grown it and that is why Canterbury is such a very special place, because of the holistic, embracing environment.”
That game between Munster and New Zealand, in 2008, when Munster did the Haka, did you see that on television at home?
“Yes, I did. It was fantastic, unique. Ever since I was a young lad, watching teams at Lansdowne Road or Cardiff Arms Park, those great old stadiums, I always had a yearning to come up here and play. I just loved the thought of coming up and being part of the passion that is overtly obvious up here. Whatever it is, or where it comes from, I’m not sure, but the chanting and clapping, it is unique. There is nothing like it in the southern hemisphere that I have been part of and I’ve watched games and been involved in games in Australia, New Zealand and South Africa. Thomond Park is unique. The Munster supporters are unique. I’m searching for a superlative to describe it, but there isn’t one. Now that I’ve been fortunate enough to have had a few successes at Thomond Park, and just seeing the crowd and the way they embrace the lads, it’s special.”
One of the reasons you were appointed was because of a proven track record in bringing promising young players through. Would it be accurate to say you were also charged with a mandate for change?
“Yes. Culturally, there has been a massive shift, which is one of the biggest areas. Mahatma Gandhi said that culture lives in the hearts and the souls of the people. The people here are wonderful, but they still need nurturing and to be provided with an environment that’s going to cultivate the talent that’s here, the latent talent that needs to be progressed. I’ve been accused of being really optimistic, really positive at times, but that’s what I believe young men need to be able to push on.”
When you say the people, you mean the players?
“Yes, the players. There’s starting to be a real growth mentality there, but we are nowhere near perfect yet, playing-wise, culturally, or in terms of our standards. It’s a work in progress. There have been a lot of young men who have come in, who don’t yet fully understand what is required.”
You appear enthused by the young players here. Is there more talent in Munster than some appreciate?
“We had two of our overseas professional places taken up by front rowers when I arrived. We took to the field against Treviso, two weeks ago, with all Irish-eligible props. In 18 months, we’ve brought on Killer (Dave Kilcoyne), James Cronin, John Ryan and Stephen Archer, all now capable of starting at Rabo level, and we are confident that they will all do a great job for us, and a couple of those are capable of pushing on and becoming international level players. I saw a glimpse of Duncan Casey, against London Irish, at Musgrave Park about a month after I arrived, and I was excited about what he could bring. He just needed an opportunity to come in and that opportunity came this year and he’s made every post a winner. We had every confidence in him. There were media reports about us getting current New Zealand hooker, Andrew Hore, in because of a spate of injuries, but there was just no way. We had Duncan and Niall Scannell. Unless you show faith in the young fellows, they are going to have self-doubts. They are always going to have self-doubts anyway, but you’ve got to believe in them before they believe in themselves.”
Munster has struggled when it comes to producing midfield backs. Is there a bit of light shining through there?
“JJ Hanrahan is a terrific kid, a local boy whose come a bit late to rugby, but developed into a great footballer and has a great future, as a 21-year-old running the ship. Cian Bohane is another young lad that you will know well that I am very excited about, as is Rory Scannell. So, there is some local talent around the midfield area that is young and green and very, very capable.”
At what stage did you feel the changes you were trying to implement were coming together?
“I think back to the Harlequins quarter-final at the Stoop, and I was very confident going into that game. We created three opportunities in the wide channels in the first 25 minutes that we didn’t quite capitalise on. We had them shot to bits, but went the wrong way. We didn’t see the picture and that’s a big, big thing for me. For players to be able to react to what they see and have the confidence to call it. Setting up a framework that allows that to happen. Although the game, in terms of structure, wasn’t overtly obvious to people, the opportunities that we created put pressure on Harlequins. They had to cover us out wide, which allowed us to go through the middle in the second-half, when we got James Downey involved. That was really pleasing and I came off that thinking ‘we’ve turned a big corner here’.”
Was that the day when the light finally went off?
“To be fair, I think it went off with me when we played Racing Metro at home. We had to get the bonus point and I know they went down to 14 men early on, but Zeebs scored three tries and we looked very confident and a capable side. Perpignan, away this season, was pretty special. The only way they were able to do what they did in that last move (Hanrahan’s spectacular try) was because they had been through some dark moments and had some challenges put in front of them. The only way you can ever get an outcome like that is that, firstly, players have to have the confidence and, then, they have to have the tools. That was a wonderful moment in a game we deserved to win.”
“It’s really raw with me still and disappointing, because I think the best is still to come with this group. Another year and another couple of players coming in to strengthen this group again. I just hope they will be able to persevere, because a lot of the hard work has been done now. Look, there were things that happened and, unfortunately, it just didn’t work out. I’ll be looking back and a bit of my heart will still be here and I’ll be cheering the boys on.”
There is obviously a sense of unfinished business eating away at you?
“Yes, very much so. When you come into a group and you are charged with a mandate about change.” (Penney’s frustration at leaving becomes palpable at this point).
You obviously feel you have so much more to give.
“I think I do. I didn’t want to be leaving... things just came to bear that it didn’t work.”
With just two months left at the helm, how would you like to sign off?
ROB PENNEY: “I’d love silverware. Every coach’s desire is to see their team get the rewards of a long season. I won’t be signing off. I’ll just disappear into the ether. It’s all about the team and the important thing is they are embraced and are able to continue with their individual goals, dreams and aspirations, because it’s a players’ game. Coaches live their lives vicariously through the players. You want them to do so well and you jump on the back of that, to a degree. You only make a small dent. People come and go. The future here is really bright and I know the players that are in the group are capable of continuing a marvellous journey.”
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