Are we calling time on the Seanad or giving Kenny a bloody nose?

TWO men sat in a pub arguing about the Seanad referendum last night. This is part of their discussion.

Man 1: So I hear you’re going to be voting to save the Seanad?

Man 2: Absolutely. I’m not having our democracy reduced. I’m voting no and proud of it. This is not a dictatorship.

Man 1: That’s a big ironic, isn’t it, your position on this?

Man 2: In what way?

Man 1: You went to University of Limerick, didn’t you? That means you don’t have a vote in Seanad elections. You’re citing democracy to save an institution that doesn’t allow you a vote because you went to the wrong university.

Man 2: Well, you have your vote don’t you, as a UCC boy? So let me guess, judging by your tone you want the Seanad abolished. You have your vote and you probably don’t even use it and then you give out and want the Seanad abolished when you don’t even participate as you could.

Man 1: Participate? In what way? The whole thing is gerry-built. If you don’t have a university degree, and from the right university, you don’t get to vote. If that’s not bad enough the place is a home for failed politicians on the way down, wannabe politicians on the way up, some teacher’s pets that the Taoiseach picks to give himself a majority to get every government measure through and a few bright sparks who get elected by the universities. It’s not enough to justify spending €20 million a year on is it? That’s what you call waste boy. Bunch of wasters.

Man 2: Now hang on. There’s no proof of that figure. That’s being spun just to create the impression that it’s all a waste of money, money we’ll have once its shut, which I bet we won’t.

Man 1: Yes, there is.

Man 2: Well I want independent verification. And in any case it’s costing €14 million that we don’t have to hold this bloody referendum to abolish the thing in 2016. That’s a scandalous waste of money in any book. I’m not voting to help Enda Kenny out with that.

Man 1: I thought you were an Enda supporter.

Man 2: Well, I was, but his failure to debate on television last Tuesday night didn’t impress me one little bit. You tell me, why didn’t Kenny go on the telly and explain his position? It’s his big idea, supposedly his personal crusade, proof that he is bold and brave and imaginative too. Okay, why didn’t he prove it to me? Where’s the leadership?

Man 1: Kenny didn’t need to engage in head-to-head television debates during the 2011 general election campaign to become Taoiseach and it didn’t stop you voting for him.

Man 2: He took part. He was on the telly.

Man 1: He hid in the safety of large groups and wouldn’t go near interviewers like Vincent Browne and that fellow Cooper on the radio.

Man 2: Well, I can sort of understand that. I mightn’t like him on this one but they wouldn’t exactly be fair to him would they? Why would he put himself through being grilled by them when he was going to win? Same with this referendum.

Man 1: So you’re conceding you’ll lose.

Man 2: Maybe. Just ask yourself this though. What if this referendum was in doubt?

Man 1: What do you mean by that?

Man 2: OK I agree that it looks like it’s going to be passed but I’m still hopeful that people will see sense and that the cynics and apathetic won’t be bothered to get up off their arses and go vote to abolish the thing and the good people will win. But I think it looks as if the Government is going to win so Kenny’s handlers have decided they don’t need to expose him to a debate. But what if it was 50/50 in the polls? Would they send Kenny out to win it or would they be afraid he’d undermine the effort? I think I know the answer.

Man 1: I think we both do. But I’ll still be voting to abolish because this vote isn’t about Kenny, it’s about how useless and costly and unnecessary the Seanad is.

Man 2: Don’t be so damn populist. Your voting yes is just playing to this “a plague on all their houses” attitude towards politicians. You should have more respect for our politicians. You can give out about democracy but is there anything else you’d try?

Man 1: Do you think the voting system for the Seanad is right? That you can’t vote, just like 97% of the people in the pub? That nearly every person in this pub tonight can’t vote, other than Mickey the gombeen councillor over in the corner there?

Man 2: He’s a good man, gets things done. He’s properly elected.

Man 1: Aha, he is and our senators aren’t.

Man 2: Yes they are, according to the law as it stands. I’d change that law, allow everyone to vote, reform the Seanad but that’s not the issue we’re being asked to vote on. All we’re been asked to do is end it instead of changing it.

Man 1: Allow everyone to vote! Democratic yes, but to give us what? Two houses full of gobshites who pander to every local demand? One is bad enough without giving us two.

Man 2: Now you’re making my argument for me to save the Seanad, because it’s full of better intellects, people who aren’t beholden to being re-elected and who do the populist thing.

Man 1: Are you serious? Do you follow Seanad debates? Do you think they’re all as smart as people like Professor John Crown or Dr Sean Barrett? Those are the bloody exceptions. Where are the Mary Robinson’s and WB Yeats of the present generation? Did you listen to them this year during the Protection of Life during Pregnancy debates? Ronan Mullen? Fidelma Healy Eames? Jimmy Walsh?

Man 2: All entitled to their views.

Man 1: Not according to Enda Kenny if they didn’t vote the way he wanted if they were members of Fine Gael.

Man 2: That’s a different issue. I want to save it to reform it, to allow for more of the right type of people.

Man 1: Who are the right type of people? Elected by who? And this idea of reform! In this country! Reform? Fat chance! There have been 14 reports published about reform since 1938. That’s right, fourteen. Little or nothing has happened. Little or nothing will.

Man 2: I think you might get a surprise, that people will decide to save the Seanad because beneath of all their cynicism they like the checks and balances it provides to the overwhelming power of the Dáil. They appreciate the wit and wisdom of better debates than you hear in the Dáil, the presence of part-time people who have succeeded in other walks of life and who can’t give all of their time to politics as would be needed in the Dáil.

Man 1: I love your idealism.

Man 2: I hate your cynicism. I hate the cynicism of holding a referendum in October, dominating the national airwaves, newspapers and social media in the run-up to the next austerity budget. As much as anything I want to vote no to punish Kenny for that.

Man 1: So that’s it. It’s not to save the Seanad at all. You’ve fallen out of love with Kenny and you want to give him a bloody nose. That’s a rubbish reason.

You’re going to the wrong thing out of spite.

Man 2: I’ll give you the bloody nose if you’re not careful.

Barman: Gentlemen, time please, have you no homes to go to?

Both men: Just the one.

* The Last Word with Matt Cooper is broadcast on 100-102 Today FM, Monday to Friday, 4.30pm to 7pm.