Justice committee ends after heated exchange during minister's questioning

Sinn Féin's Matt Carthy said his questions were relevant and claimed that there was 'clearly an agenda to undermine' him as chairman and that he would not tolerate it. Picture: Sam Boal/Collins

The Oireachtas Justice Committee ended abruptly after the chairman and vice-chair engaged in heated exchanges during questioning of Justice Minister Jim O’Callaghan.

Committee chairman, Sinn Féin TD Matt Carthy was questioning the minister on the cost of international protection centres used to accommodate asylum seekers when vice chairwoman, Fine Gael TD Paula Butterly interrupted him.

The Louth deputy said the chair was not sticking to the purpose of the meeting — which was on department of justice estimates.

Mr Carthy responded by saying he was the chairman, to which she replied she was the vice chairwoman.

He asked her to be “quiet” and as the exchanges intensified, she told him to “do your job as chair properly”.

She said members asked specific questions relating to the estimates and claimed Mr Carthy was going away from that to other questions. 

She added that the minister had indicated he would come back in September or October to talk about International Protection Accommodation Service (IPAS) centres.

Mr Carthy, representing Cavan/Monaghan, said his questions did relate to the estimates and claimed that there was “clearly an agenda to undermine” him as chairman and that he would not tolerate it.

He asked committee officials to silence Ms Butterly’s microphone and pointed out that he had allowed every other member to speak for a long time and did not interrupt them and that his questioning was taking up less time.

Mr Carthy then ended the meeting. Both he and Ms Butterly got off their seats and met each other half way and continued their exchanges as the live feed was cut.

Before the vice-chair intervened, Mr Carthy told Mr O’Callaghan that there were “huge concerns” regarding IPAS, and said the lack of information about them fuelled local rumours and fears.

He told the minister that the contracting of private operators was happening “in secret and in the dark” and questioned Mr O’Callaghan why they were being paid so much.

Mr O’Callaghan said he was trying to get away from using private contractors and said that was why he purchased City West hotel in Dublin and that state-owned properties were the answer.

He said he had instructed his officials to get the “best value for money” in contracts with private operators.

Earlier in the hearing, Labour TD for Tipperary Alan Kelly also questioned the minister about IPAS centres, including the use of the remaining hotel in local areas.

On other issues, Cork North Central TD Padraig O’Sullivan said that in a reply to a parliamentary question he was told that the number of detections of drivers caught with a mobile phone have soared, from around 18,000 in 2022, to 19,000 in 2023, before jumping to around 22,000 in 2024.

The Fianna Fáil deputy said that there has been 7,000 detections by March 2025 and said that if that number continued the country was “looking at the high 20,000s” by year's end.

Mr O’Sullivan said drivers were not only on their phones but looking at their iPads or operating various apps on elaborate car screens and were partially responsible for rising accidents and deaths.

Minister O’Callaghan said driving while looking at devices was “highly dangerous” and said “deaths are caused by it”.

He said the government and road authorities have to be “relentless” in combatting this and cited improved garda detections and improved road conditions.

He said drivers need to realise that there is a good likelihood they will be caught and will face consequences.

On other topics, Minister O’Callaghan said:

• The dispute over garda subsistence and travel allowance had been “going on too long” but that the agreement of Revenue was needed;
• He said reverting the pension scheme for gardaí who joined after 2013 back to the previous scheme would “probably make the job more attractive”, but said this would cost a “very significant amount of money” as it would have to apply to all the public sector;
• Gardaí suspended from duty were “entitled” to have investigations completed as quickly as possible.