Debate on the 8th: Your views on Ireland's most divisive topic
Here is a selection of letters received, some in favour of and some against retaining the amendment to Article 40, which was approved by referendum on September 7, 1983, and signed into law exactly one month later
RETAIN
Abortion is not a human right
In a letter to the Irish Examiner on October 18, Colm O’Gorman, of Amnesty Ireland, called on elected representatives to “ensure that women and girls have access to abortion, in line with Ireland’s obligations under international human rights law”.
Strange that he did not spell out the law to which he referred. I have yet to find an international law that provides entitlement to a right to terminate the lives of unborn children.
The right to life is fundamental and shared by all members of the human family.
This is recognised in international law, through the provisions of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR), the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR), and numerous other binding treaties to which Ireland is a party.
By contrast, access to abortion has never been recognised in any universal human rights treaty.
The UDHR proclaims that “the inherent dignity” and “the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family” are shared by everyone, without distinction of any kind. This applies equally to all, regardless of age, stage of development, disability, or circumstances of conception.
Article 3 of the UDHR states: “Everyone has the right to life, liberty, and security of person”, while Article 6 guarantees that: “Everyone has the right to recognition, everywhere, as a person before the law.”
The Declaration of the Rights of the Child, 1958, makes clear that the rights enumerated by the UDHR apply to the unborn. It states: “…the child, by reason of his physical and mental immaturity, needs special safeguards and care, including appropriate legal protection, before, as well as after, birth…”
It continues: “…the need for such special safeguards has been recognised in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights…” The preamble of the ECHR also cites the UDHR. In doing so, it links the rights expressed in the declaration directly with those guaranteed by the European Convention. This includes the right to life of everyone, without exception, their right to recognition as a person before the law, and appropriate legal protection for children, “before, as well as after, birth”.
The Eighth Amendment to the Constitution of Ireland commits the Irish State to upholding the right to life of the child, before birth, in domestic law. This merely fulfils the human-rights obligations placed on Ireland when we ratified the UDHR, the ECHR, and the Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC).
Does Mr O’Gorman know of a law somewhere that takes precedence over these very specific laws?
Checks and balances
The 8th Amendment of Ireland’s Constitution is a conscious check and balance, as inserted, acknowledging the vulnerable unborn child, asserting the equal human right to life of both mother and child.
To repeal the Eighth Amendment means removing it from the Constitution, the consequence of which will be conscious removal of the fundamental human right to life of children unborn in Ireland. Since when, in Ireland, have we begun removing basic human rights from our children? We talk of childcare, child protection, child welfare.
Nonsense. We have a sham Minister for Children, Katherine Zappone, an extremist who favours repeal, who favours abortion. The consequence will be the willful killing of children unborn in Ireland. Well, then, who among us will be next, I wonder? The Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment is biased in favour of abortion in Ireland.
The committee is stacked with these extremists, who favour liberal abortion, as in the UK and US. Fifteen to three, and two abstentions. This was proven in last week’s committee vote to repeal the Eighth, thus removing the fundamental, equal human right to life itself.
Yes, stacked. This is a live horror of groupthink. Those who try to check and balance are being ridiculed by the dangerous extremists. This is what is happening. Spin abounds, designed to sterilise debate, to silence, to muzzle.
So much for equality. Is there to be no equality for the child unborn, the most vulnerable in Ireland today?
There is no debate on the humanity of children unborn, whose rights are to be quenched. Will you, in your public medium, call out this sham, this dishonesty, this bias, this horror among us, this deliberately conscious removal of human rights from the child unborn?
Will you call it what it is: A children’s (human) rights issue. The extremists are having a free ride. Why is that?
They deserve our thanks
Deputies Peter Fitzpatrick and Mattie McGrath, and Senator Ronan Mullen, deserve to be thanked for their contributions at the Oireachtas Committee, which is set on deleting the Eighth Amendment, i.e. our Constitution’s explicit statement of protection for the unborn, and evidence-based medical-care in Irish labour-wards. The whole affair seems to be a set-up, with ambushes laid along the way.
Perhaps Dr Peter Boylan’s desire to have all 4,800 abortions currently carried out on Irish unborn babies in the UK carried out in Ireland instead (evidence given October 19) has let the cat out of the bag. Does he not think that even one of these unborn children was worthy of our constitution’s protection? Did not even one of these deserve to live?
It is also amazing that while the committee will only hear from those they consider to be expert witnesses, the media are reporting medical expert’s views on points of legal interpretation, as if they were qualified. Something stinks about this committee and its way of doing things. For example, without hearing all the medical experts they themselves had chosen to call, they recommended quashing the Eighth Amendment.
Ironically, this article had been inserted to maintain a scientific, evidence-based ethos in our healthcare system, free from ideological interference. Finally, although every abortion crushes the humanity of all who are implicated in it, particularly mothers, this has not even been mentioned. How odd.
The whole thing is just one elaborate farce.
Life-saving provision
Since when was it correct to use the term ‘impartial expert’ to describe an organisation that is heavily campaigning internationally, and even fundraising, to bring about a particular result? That’s the situation with the Centre for Reproductive Rights, which is a long-term abortion lobbyist worldwide, and which is fundraising to change Ireland’s abortion laws.
Despite this, it has been invited into the Oireachtas Committee on abortion as an ‘impartial expert’. That only emerged this past week, thanks to Senator Ronan Mullen and Deputy Mattie McGrath, who said they were considering whether there was any point in remaining on the committee, such is the level of bias and disrespect for the Eighth Amendment, a pro-life that is responsible for saving tens of thousands of children in Ireland, since it was inserted into the Constitution.
As a taxpayer, I expect to be told where my money is going.
When it’s being used to fly in abortion advocates, who are trying to change our abortion laws, I expect to be told, so I can object. Organisers of the committee, please take note and have your chairperson explain what is going on in there.
Imbalance on the committee
Following the scenes outside the Dáil, when Senator Ronan Mullen and Deputy Mattie McGrath met with members of the Pro Life Campaign to highlight the imbalance on the Oireachtas Committee on abortion (24 pro-choice guests compared to four pro-life ones), the committee chair, Senator Catherine Noone, was at pains to insist that she has always been “impartial” in her dealings with members of the committee.
With respect, this is not the issue. It is the imbalance of the guest speakers that is at issue, not the actions of the chairperson.
It is now up to Senator Noone to explain why 24 people have been invited who will speak in favour of repealing the Eighth Amendment and only four who will talk about why it should be retained.
She must also explain why the families who say their children are alive thanks to the Eighth Amendment have not been invited to share their testimony.
They were similarly ignored at the Citizens’ Assembly, yet some speakers have been invited to both the Citizens’ Assembly and the Oireachtas Committee — this, despite the fact that it has already been stated that the committee doesn’t want to repeat the work of the Citizens’ Assembly.
Perhaps the chairperson could explain some of these issues to the public, who are paying for the committee.
Truly shocked at committee
I cannot be the only one who was truly shocked that the Oireachtas committee on abortion has invited 24 groups and individuals to present the case for repeal of the Eighth Amendment, and only four who will give a presentation on why the Eighth should be kept.
This is no way to run an impartial committee, no matter what claims are made to the contrary by the chairperson or other organisers. We judge a committee’s fairness on its make-up, not on the words used to describe what is going on.
It is very clear what is at play, when the bias in favour of pro-repeal advocates is a staggering six to one.
By anyone’s reckoning, this is a committee whose organisation is weighted heavily in favour of repeal.
Every human life is valuable
The Oireachtas committee has agreed that the Eighth Amendment should not be retained in full, even though this is the provision in our Constitution that protects the right to life of the unborn.
Fine Gael TD Kate O’Connell believes this decision is a step in the right direction.
Heaven’s above!
How could a decision to end the human rights of a whole section of our society ever be a step in the right direction?
And speaking of human rights: what about the right to life of the unborn? Is the unborn baby to be denied the right to life by virtue of the environment she is in, her level of dependency, her disability, or even her gender?
Fianna Fáil TD Lisa Chambers said the decision sent a signal that the status quo was no longer acceptable. I agree with Ms Chambers. It does send a signal, a very worrying and gravely flawed signal, that suggests unborn babies are somehow lesser human beings. Gosh, how we’ve fallen from the resolve of our forefathers to cherish all the nation’s children equally!
Undeniably, we all know women who find themselves in desperate situations and we, as a nation, need to offer positive alternates to the atrocity of abortion. Indeed, we can take our lead from organisations such as Every Life Counts, One Day More, Gianna Care, Anew, and Cura — organisations committed to respecting and protecting the right to life of the mother and baby alike. The Irish people will have their say and, when they do, I hope they remember that every human life is invaluable and so protect the right to life of both mother and baby.
REPEAL
From pro-life to pro-choice
I am a nineteen-year-old girl, living in rural Ireland, raised in a Catholic family. I have understood what ‘abortion’ meant for a while, but have only been able to call myself pro-choice for the last twelve months. I’m not ashamed of admitting to my past pro-life beliefs, because I like to think of it as proof that people can change. I feel it’s important to state this, from the get-go, because I want pro-life people to feel that they can change their minds, and I want pro-choice people to know the full truth of how my beliefs came to be.
I do understand the pro-life perspective, because it was my perspective for so long. It wasn’t a quick transition, from a pro-life advocate to a pro-choice campaigner. It was more a collection of small realisations that tweaked my thought process, before being solidified by one lightbulb moment.
I started questioning my stances for the first time following Savita Halappanavar’s death.
I do understand that a termination likely would not have saved her, but, for me, that wasn’t the point then, and it isn’t the point now; a woman, on her deathbed, was denied a medical procedure that she had requested, because our laws forbade it. I remember thinking: ‘When does life actually start?’
At the same time, when do we start to trust a mother’s judgement — if a foetus is a life from conception, then when is a mother ‘a mother’? And if we rely on the mother to care for her child once the child is born, shouldn’t she be allowed to decide its future from conception?
I watched my baby cousins grow and wondered why anyone would give that up. At the same time, I saw girls my age struggling to be mothers. I also became aware that if I became an organ donor, in death I could choose what happened to my body; a choice that I was being denied whilst alive, should I get pregnant.
Following that, I remember hearing of women who were unable to abort foetuses with fatal issues, because of the law; women who couldn’t afford to travel abroad to seek abortions; women who were raped and forced to carry their children to term, because they couldn’t get an abortion for one reason or another, or many reasons together.
I was conflicted about it, because I truly felt awful for these women. But through all of this, I still called myself pro-life. Because I was. And, in many ways, I still am. I’m anti-violence, anti-murder, and pro-life, love, relationships, and friendship. A friend, who was as passionate as I was, but pro-choice, changed my entire perspective with one simple question. “And what if it was me?”
And that was it. That was when the switch flipped in my head, because, suddenly, abortion wasn’t just a statistic on a page, it was real. Because I knew, then, that if my friend had needed the abortion, I would have given her the money to go abroad, if I had it. I would have seen her to the airport, travelled with her if she’d asked. I would have done anything she needed for me to support her. Because she was my friend.
So that’s what I would like everyone, pro-choice, pro-life, or undecided, to think about for a moment. Stop thinking about the women who are seeking abortions as segments on a pie chart, or numbers on a spreadsheet, or suitcases left outside a TD’s door.
Think of your female friends. And girlfriends. And wives, and daughters, cousins, aunts, mothers, colleagues, neighbours, or the girl you buy your coffee from every morning on the way to work. Behind every number there is a face, a person, an actual woman. And maybe today or tomorrow, or in two months’ time, it could be a woman you know. It could be you.
I’m asking you to think of every woman you know. I’m asking you to look every one of them in the eyes and tell them you are going to deny them what they want, or maybe what they need. Could you do it? I couldn’t, and neither could anyone else I’ve posed that question to, so far. Because, at the end of the day, maybe that woman who needs an abortion is just a number to you, but she’s something to someone.
The most important thing I learned was that ‘pro-choice’ is not the same thing as ‘pro-abortion’. Someone told me that by being pro-choice, you’re anti-life. But the door swings both ways: If you’re pro-life, aren’t you anti-choice? On a personal level, I don’t think I could ever go through with an abortion, if I needed one, but it’s not my place to make that decision for anyone else; and I would like to hope that if I needed an abortion, nobody else would be able to dictate that decision for me. Wouldn’t you?
Repeal will not legalise abortion
I would like to address some key misinformation about any future repeal of the Eighth Amendment. There is a misapprehension that if the Eighth Amendment were repealed tomorrow that abortion access would no longer be illegal. This is not the case. It would simply no longer be in the Constitution.
The Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act of 2013, passed by the Houses of the Oireachtas, mainly in response to public outrage at the awful and unnecessary death of Savita Halappanavar in UCH Galway, would still apply. This act makes it illegal for us to access abortion, unless we are dying.
Even with the repeal of the Eighth Amendment, we would still have the most restrictive abortion laws in the EU, and we would still be in contravention of UN human rights findings, as well as rulings from the European Court of Human Rights.
Repeal of the Eighth Amendment would remove the limitations of the provision of abortion care, as well as the right to consent to, or refuse, treatment during continued pregnancy and birth, from the Constitution — a place wholly inappropriate for private family medical decisions in the first place.
As a mother of two daughters, as well as a woman whose last pregnancy became life-threatening, I look forward to seeing this change in my reproductive lifetime, having never had the opportunity to have had a say in it before. The Eighth Amendment was passed the year before I was born. I hope, and believe, its limitations and strictures on my body, my choices, and my healthcare will be gone before my daughters come of an age.
Repeal is also about medical consent
The Eighth Amendment is not only about abortion. It affects every pregnant person in Ireland: Under the Eighth, pregnant women and girls have no legal right to any say in their own medical care, and no right to give or refuse consent to any medical treatment.
Every year, 70,000 women and girls in Ireland become pregnant. The vast majority of these never need to consider abortion, and yet they are still affected by the Eighth amendment. They can be — and many are — forced to undergo excruciating and traumatic medical interventions, even if these can leave them with permanent physical or psychological damage, even if these are against international best practice, and against their will.
Repealing the Eighth will not make abortion legal. But it will restore to pregnant people their right to consent in their own medical care.
Irish women have abortions, in shame
Pregnant people in Ireland already have abortions, every day. Ten travel to the UK, and up to five more safely, if illegally, take abortion pills at home. Every day.
All the Eighth Amendment does is force people to terminate their pregnancies in secrecy and shame. It doesn’t stop abortions; it never has. It’s time that we all face up to this reality and legislate for appropriate medical care that is available to all, not just those with the means or ability to travel. Free, safe, legal abortions: As early as possible, as late as necessary.
Women’s autonomy is nub of the issue
I am old enough to have voted in the 1983 referendum. I voted against the insertion of the Eighth Amendment. My reasons then are the same as now. A woman should not be forced to continue with a pregnancy, if she wants an abortion. The Eighth Amendment was not just about protecting the unborn, but also removing from women the right to personal autonomy.
Subsequently, we had to amend the Constitution to guarantee the right to travel and the right to information. The amendment prevented pregnant women from leaving the jurisdiction to procure an abortion. The X case did happen, even though the pro-amendment advocates in 1983 said that it would not.
If Ireland wants to be a truly pro-life country, then we need to set up systems where women do not have unwanted pregnancies.
Therefore, this is about supporting good quality sex education and information about contraceptive methods. There is also a need to educate people about responsible sexual activity in relationships.
The fallout from the ill-considered Eighth Amendment was predicted in 1983.
We have to deal with that by repealing it and legislating for abortion along the lines that the Citizens’ Assembly has advised.
I do not think we can second guess the reason that some women choose abortion.
The most pro-life action would be to support women who do choose to become parents, but also those that do not.
Wrong to force a woman to give birth
Those that seek to deny Irish women access to abortion services seem to think they hold some sort of moral high ground. I believe the opposite is the case.
It is morally wrong to deny women basic healthcare.
It is wrong to provide no alternative but to travel in shame, or order pills online and suffer in silence, or take their chances with dangerous home methods. It is wrong to try to force them through pregnancy against their will, to deny them the right to make this decision based on their own circumstances and their own conscience, regardless of our own personal feelings on abortion.
Over 200,000 women and girls from this island have had abortions since 1983. These are our mothers, sisters, daughters, granddaughters, friends. Forget religion. We need to look deep into our own morality and ask ourselves: ‘If a girl or woman needs an abortion, for whatever reason, would we physically stop her?’ What level of control should we have over her body, her health, her conscience?
Repeal the Eighth. It’s the right thing to do.
Caesareans can still be compulsory
The discussion around the Eighth Amendment has been dominated by contrasting views about access to abortion in this state.
While this is of significant importance for the thousands of women directly affected, it is not the only reason to support removal of the Eighth Amendment from the Constitution.
The legal framework of the Eighth Amendment means that pregnant women can be forced to have medical treatments against their will. Under the provisions of the HSE’s ‘National Consent Policy’, a woman wanting to have a natural birth, rather than a caesarean section, may find herself facing a court order that forces her to have the caesarean.
Anyone who believes pregnant women should have the same right of consent/refusal for medical procedures as everyone else in Ireland must support removal of the Eighth Amendment from the Constitution.
We’re turning a blind eye to suffering
241 women seeking terminations in UK clinics last year gave addresses in Cork. These are just the women we know about. This figure does not include the many other Cork women who risked a 14-year prison sentence — and death — taking abortion medication at home: Medication widely available in almost every other country in the Western hemisphere. To turn a blind eye to the suffering and pain experienced by these women is hypocrisy of the worst, most callous kind.
Abortions happen anyway. They always have, and they always will.
Pregnant people must have choices about what happens to their bodies and lives. You are either in favour of legal abortion or in favour of dangerous, illegal abortion.
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