The case for and against Bertie: Now it’s make your mind up time
Man A: It’s a disgrace what’s happening to Bertie. A decent man who has done so much for the country, and what gratitude do we show him? He’s being subjected to a public investigation of all of his most private affairs and, as he said himself, it’s none of our bloody business. What sort of country have we become that we do this to our best, the man who brought peace to Northern Ireland?
Man B: What sort of country would we have if we didn’t investigate the stuff he was doing while holding elected office? He’s only under investigation because he can’t explain how tens of thousands of pounds flowed in and out of bank accounts when he was finance minister and when he was just becoming leader of Fianna Fáil. Or the six years that he didn’t have a bank account. Or the gifts he calls loans and the whip-rounds and brown paper bags stuffed with cash left on his seat in a pub.
Man A: It was to do with his marital separation and giving him somewhere to live, and that should be private.
Man B: But he had saved tens of thousands. He had a roof over his head and he had money coming from all sorts of places which he wouldn’t have received if he didn’t hold a senior political office.
Man A: But there’s no evidence he did anything in return. There’s no corruption.
Man B: He gave many of the donors State directorships because they were his friends, the same people who he said gave him the money.
Man A: There’s little financial value in any of those jobs, just a bit of prestige. It was all above board and made public at the relevant time and nobody commented.
Man B: We didn’t know they had given him money when he appointed them.
Man A: But there is no corruption. He did nothing for anyone.
Man B: That’s not necessarily the point. Judge McCracken said at the end of his tribunal that politicians should not be in receipt of money from anyone because it makes them beholden to the donor. Ahern agreed with that in the Dáil afterwards.
Man A: Maybe, but that still doesn’t mean Ahern did anything for any donor.
Man B: Ahern also introduced the tax amnesty as finance minister. He changed the rules for tax exiles allowing them more time in the country. He brought in special tax legislation that was to the benefit of just one man, a property developer called Ken Rohan who was fighting a revenue claim for about £1 million, despite advice from his department officials not to do it. Rohan had hosted a Fianna Fáil fundraiser in his home and paid Ahern’s financial minder, Des Richardson, as a consultant.
Man A: This is typical of the type of nonsense Ahern has to listen to, none of which is ever going to be investigated by the tribunal under its terms of reference. It should not even be investigating the stuff it’s probing now. Quarryvale is about allegations of payments made by Owen O’Callaghan. The tribunal has shown none to Ahern and yet it continues to dig.
Man B: Because there’s an allegation that O’Callaghan paid Ahern in dollars and much of Ahern’s foreign currency transactions appear to have been conducted in dollars rather than sterling, as Ahern claims. In any case, an investigation shouldn’t be abandoned just because it turns up the unexpected instead of what was being looked for.
Man A: If you were to follow that to its logical conclusion, this investigation could go on forever. It has gone on for far too long as it is — for 11 years when it was supposed to investigate matters with urgency — and it’s costing way too much. It’s said it could cost €300m. Look at all the hospital beds that could buy.
Man B: As if the Government would have allocated this money to the health service or spent it wisely. And the State has recouped tens of millions in unpaid tax from people highlighted at the tribunals. And what price can you put on forcing the holders of public office to be honest?
Man A: Who would want to be a politician when they have to face all of this guff? Nobody will want to go into politics after this for fear of the public intrusion.
Man B: There was no shortage of people standing for election in May.
Man A: But look at the quality of many of them. There were few enough standing who were willing to take a pay cut.
Man B: Does that mean we should allow people to have their public wages topped up by gifts from people and companies in the private sector just to ensure we get a higher calibre of brains in government, albeit corrupt ones?
Man A: What evidence has there been of corruption by any of the politicians named and shamed in reports or who have been the subject of evidence at the tribunal?
Man B: Do you really think Ray Burke wasn’t corrupt just because it wasn’t shown that he did things in return for all of the cash he got? Or Charlie Haughey? Just look at the similarities between Haughey and Ahern. Ahern used Des Richardson to raise money for Fianna Fáil in the same way Haughey used Des Traynor. Ahern used to sign blank cheques for Haughey that were used to raid the party coffers.
Man A: Comparing Ahern to Haughey is crazy. There are no hidden offshore accounts. No million euro plus donations. Ahern has never lived the high life like Haughey. He has never shown any interest in material wealth. He has done nothing but give service to the country.
Man B: He has always had enough money to live his life exactly as he would want. He never lacked for somewhere comfortable to live, he goes to his football matches, has car provided for him, he takes holidays in expensive locations, is never short cash for his pints and he eats out in top-priced restaurants. He wants for little. He always had buckets of money to run his constituency the way he likes.
Man A: But look at the distractions he faces now, just as the economy enters its most difficult phase in 15 years. He should be focused on the job at hand, not having to pour over bank statements from 15 years ago, preparing evidence with lawyers and having to go day after day to Dublin Castle to face inquisition. It is not what the country needs or the people want.
Man B: I tend to agree with you there, although his ministers are spinning that he is entirely focused on his day-to-day job. I find that a bit hard to believe. He seems very grumpy and his Government has made lots of poor decisions in recent months.
Man A: So leave him alone. Close the tribunal and let him get on with his job.
Man B: Or let him resign and let somebody else become Taoiseach while he faces the tribunal.
Man A: The people elected him to be Taoiseach last May. You can’t overcome the will of the people.
Man B: The people didn’t re-elect the outgoing government. He formed a new one with the Greens and independents on top of the remaining PDs. Is that the Government the people wanted? They voted for local representatives and it pitched up this way. It wasn’t a plebiscite as to whether Ahern should be Taoiseach. And if it was, they didn’t know then what they know now about his finances.
Man A: This isn’t going to end, is it? People like you are going to batter away, putting principles ahead of pragmatism all of the time, until Ahern finally goes.
Man B: At last we may have found total agreement.
The Last Word with Matt Cooper is broadcast on 100-102 Today FM, Monday to Friday, 4.30pm to 7pm.
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